The Stockdale Paradox and the moment we face

Podcast guest Dennis Aftergut believes we must face the brutal facts but keep our unwavering faith

Nothing worth fighting for is easy

This week’s podcast guest is a name you should know, and probably do and don’t realize it. Dennis Aftergut is a former federal prosecutor who has argued and won cases in the Supreme Court of the United States and California. He’s been in the middle of the civil rights movement from the earliest days. As Chief Assistant City Attorney in San Francisco in the era before Obergefell v. Hodges, Dennis successfully defended suits brought by Pat Robertson’s legal foundation and United Airlines challenging San Francisco’s groundbreaking Equal Benefits Ordinance. The ordinance was a nondiscrimination law ensuring workers with domestic partners had the same employment benefits as afforded to straight employees who were married.

Today he is a constant source of legal perspective on the insanity of the right in a host of publications. He and I discussed the absolute flood of legal issues around the country today and the state of the Judiciary as a pillar of our democracy.

The Stockdale Paradox

When I asked Dennis what drives him in this difficult time, he cited what is known as the Stockdale Paradox. Admiral James Stockdale is known to many folks because he was the man who served as Vice Presidential nominee for Ross Perot’s ill-fated run for President in 1992 and struggled under the spotlight of the moment.

But, amongst military veterans he is a legendary pilot and survivor of the Hanoi Hilton who received the Medal of Honor for his service in Vietnam as the senior prisoner of war. He was brutally tortured and abused during his captivity. When the Vietnamese wanted to parade him through Hanoi he cut his scalp and when they put a hat on him he beat his own face with a stool so they couldn’t use him as a prop. Truly a warrior of legend.

Jim Stockdale in the Hanoi Hilton

Later when asked how he survived when others didn’t, he told a researcher.

“Oh, that's easy, the optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, 'We're going to be out by Christmas.' And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they'd say, 'We're going to be out by Easter.' And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart. This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

This is the Stockdale Paradox that Dennis discusses in our chat. You must face the brutal facts but maintain unwavering faith that you will prevail. It’s an important guide for today and guides our entire conversation. The brutal facts are tough with the march of authoritarian actions across the country but we have to keep our faith that we will overcome.

This is a must see episode of the show.

Apple Podcast:

Spotify:

Must reads from Dennis

Here are Dennis’ latest opinion pieces and posts that I drew from for our conversation. He is a prolific writer and worth reading every word.

• Jim Jordan Takes His Clownshow on the Road (The Bulwark)

• Abortion pill issue will show us what this Supreme Court is really made of (with Erwin Chemerinsky for The Hill)

• Clarence Thomas’s Fancy Trips (The Bulwark)

• Trump’s Moment of Accountability (The Bulwark)

• Dominion lawsuit is only the beginning: We must demolish the Fox News propaganda machine (With Austin Sarat for Salon)

• The New York Trump indictment is huge. A Georgia indictment could be even bigger. (MSNBC)

  Fred’s notes:

I hope you will check out the show, subscribe on your favorite platform, leave a good review, and share it with your friends and social networks. I would love to chat with you about this show here in the comments and in Chat. I am also using the new Substack Notes and really enjoying it. Let’s talk!  

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Scouts Out!

Fred